In the rhythm of change - 100 years of biodynamic farming - an interview with Georg Meissner, 2024

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Introduction and Dr. Georg Meissner's Background 00:00:22

Henri Murto: So, welcome, Georg Meissner, to the 100-year celebration podcast series of Finnish Biodynamic Association. And you're the first guest of this celebration podcast series, and I'm very glad and very honoured to have you as our guest. So welcome to this podcast series and welcome to Finland.

Georg Meissner: Yeah, thanks for having me here. It's beautiful to be here.

Henri Murto: And just a little bit introduced to yourself, to the audience, who is Dr. Georg Meissner, and he's a professional of viticulture, been in biodynamic viticulture since the 90s, and also did his PhD comparing the DOC trials and the conventional viticulture farming. And today, our main focus, of course, is biodynamic farming, that we talk about in biodynamics in general, your personal relationship to it. And of course, I'm very, very interested to know what is your view of the biodynamics in the next 100 years. So let's get started and welcome again.

Georg Meissner: Fantastic.

Henri Murto: So, of course, Georg, could you tell me or tell our listeners a little bit of yourself? How did you find biodynamic farming in the first place when it happened? And what was your first impulse that led you to biodynamic farming?

Georg Meissner: Yeah, I'm actually coming not from a farming background. I'm coming from a full academic background. My mother was a teacher, but mainly mother and pianist, and my father is coming from a juridical background. But I went as a child to a Waldorf kindergarten. And that was a little bit my, and I think it was a very important time for me. And I grew up in the city, but at the same time over the weekend, always in the landscape. And my mother did bring me close to nature as well. So this Waldorf kindergarten and this growing up in the surrounding landscape was maybe the first impulse.

And then I have an autistic brother who is 14 years older than myself. And he went for quite a while to a sort of Camphill or anthroposophical biodynamic farm context. He was working there. And that's how I got as a small child already in contact with it. And that was my first context. And then after high school, I finally decided to go into viticulture. And I did first a technical degree in France. And all parts of it in France, I started in Germany, and then I went over to France. And when I went over to France in the mid-90s, many of the well-known or good working quality wineries, some of them started to work in biodynamics. And for me, it was nothing new. So I was very, very quick in those circles. So that's maybe the base. And then I decided to study enology and winemaking in Montpellier. And I continued staying connected to the biodynamic or to the biodynamic world.

Bringing Biodynamics into the Academic World 00:04:14

Henri Murto: Okay. Okay. So we could say that you were in a way that you were in the first wave of biodynamic viticulture, that you were one of the first ones who actually also brought it into academic world.

Georg Meissner: I wouldn't say the first wave because I have a lot of respect for the pioneers. For me, the pioneers, especially in the viticultural world, are in the seventies, eighties. And this nineties is for me already the second wave. Then it really became a little bit bigger in the quality perception. Maybe one little anecdote, but to bring it into the academical world, that's maybe, yeah, I'm not the first. I don't like to say I'm the first one, but it gives you a nice picture of it. I was the first, I did the Diplôme National d'Œnologue, which is the National Diploma of Enology, of the highest diploma in France to become a winemaker or an enologist. And I was the first in France ever doing my, at that time it was called Rapport de Stage, but it's a diploma thesis basically on the subject of biodynamics. And when I applied, we are talking end of nineties, when I applied for that, or when I put that theme onto the table, all the professors looked at me with big eyes and what the hell is that guy coming with? But they accepted, which was nice.

And I had, for the tasting of the wine, I had a professor, which the course wasn't the most interesting one. But when he learned that I applied for that theme and I never had a strong contact to him, he came to me and said: "Georg, if you do that theme, you may be better take me into your commission." And I was okay, but I hadn't had him in mind. So I asked him why. And then he told me: "Because I'm working in biodynamic viticulture since 1963." And I was like, what? And he, in our courses at the university, we're talking end of nineties, beginning of 2000, he never, never ever said one word about it. So this is like 20, 24 years or 23 years ago now. So that's just to, to show you a little bit what the situation was. So then he, obviously I was very pleased to have him in the commission and it was really good to have him because he could tell the other professor that guy is not completely crazy.

Henri Murto: Yes, exactly. That's what I also thought about that. As I wondered as well, that was my second question, that did you experience this, this gesture from when in the nineties that people would ridicule your work and your attitude towards biodynamics, and they would say that it's just nonsense or, or, you know, you're just crazy people to do it in, in, in, especially in the nineties. Did you experience this attitude from academic world or, or your colleagues? And if you, if you did, how did you overcome it in the nineties?

Georg Meissner: I personally actually didn't so much, I must say, because for myself speaking, I had so much enthusiasm about it as a young person that, that I didn't really get touched by it. That's maybe the first thing. But the second thing is that the viticulture world is different, I think. And what happened at the end of the nineties, it's that really some of the most well-known wineries in the world started that. And it wasn't out of any idealistic reasons. It was very often a pure quality fact.

Henri Murto: Ah, exactly.

Georg Meissner: So those guys are highly professional and, but their main focus is quality. They're thriving for quality. So they, they didn't really look at all these beautiful things we have in biodynamics. For them, it was really important. That they could observe that their grapes and their wines didn't, the taste didn't taste the same anymore. And that they had something to do, that they came to, yeah, how do I say, to a wall with their conventional practises. So they had to do something on the quality section. So it was, the main thing was quality and having those big wineries in the background saying: "Listen, these guys are working like that." That was very helpful. And that I always call that light tower wineries that very often what they do, others observe and, and then, and, and it happened actually. And then depending on the region in the world, we have France, for example, but we have other countries as well. Others followed up slowly but surely. And if you talk now, end of nineties, beginning of two thousands, I knew most of the wineries, but then that thing became very strong, that movement. And now I'm completely lost. I don't know who else is doing biodynamics and things like that. So even so I travelled a lot, the entire world.

Viticulture as a Leader in Quality and Individuality 00:10:04

Henri Murto: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It is interesting because I know, I know you that you constantly travel around the world and you are working as a consultant and work with the big wineries and help them to convert biodynamic and Demeter. And so I guess you, like you said, you have seen this, this big outburst of biodynamic farming into viticulture. And so, so I was always wondering that, like you said, that the quality and, and, and you, when you see that, like you said, you have these shoulders, these big wineries behind you saying that this guy knows his work. And I always think about that. It's now in the 2020s that we, that we see that wine industry in biodynamics is really leading now. It's like a, it's attracting new people. It creates good public relationship. And, but what do you think about your experience? Because also you have an extremely big contact network of international people and many farmers. And so how would you see now in the next hundred years, does the wine industry is still going to lead the way because of the methods of biodynamics is so real in the viticulture, or do you think that there will be a change? What would be, would the coffee makers be the next one who will experience the quality or, or how did you, how do you feel that? How is the biodynamics? Is it still going to be quality first next hundred years or do we see something else?

Georg Meissner: I must be careful that I don't give a talk now for two hours, but, but for me, there's, it's a double-sided medal. On the one side, we can say at the moment, the, or let's put it into a different question. What can the wine world give to biodynamics and what can biodynamics give to the wine world? And how can I find the middle interrelation between the two and not only doing, looking at the one or the others in a dualistic point of view. How can I get this Trinity point of view of mediating?

And if you look what's happening at the moment, what the wine world can give to biodynamics. Yes, it is in many countries the carrier, and it became some sort of a fashion and it became clear that many winers converted and they could see. And we are talking very often in the wine world, we are not really talking about the entire biodynamic practises because it's a very intense monoculture. So we basically would use biodynamics very often to the use of the biodynamic preparations. They work so-called organically, and then they spray a bit, the preparations. That's very often what we call biodynamics. I'm over-exaggerating now in viticulture and those biodynamics preparations work. So everybody can see it. And even on a scientific level can see it now. And that's super interesting. And there the wine world is also, if you look at the scientific level, if you look at the so-called peer-reviewed publications, it's not too bad. And on several occasions, we can really now through the wine world actually somehow on the materialistic scientific level also explain the function of the preps. Which is fantastic.

That's one thing, but we have all those situations, which I think it's sad on the other side, if you look at France, for example, we don't have only Demeter as a certification body. We have Biodyvin and Biodyvin has more than 300 members as far as I know, just as next to Demeter. And if you only look at the Demeter certified surface in France, as far as I know at the moment, five-sixths of the entire Demeter certified surface in France, if you talk as Demeter as one certification body in biodynamics, for me, there shouldn't be a monopole, but five-sixths of that surface is wine. And this is bad because I don't want Demeter to end up as a wine certification body. So it should be definitely the other way around. So the question for me now is how can we take this impulse of viticulture and create an awareness within the other agricultural world that this is a good way to farm.

So that's one side or this impulse and the perhaps we have maybe to explain that side a bit more, this in the wine world, for me, one of the most important aspects, if you talk about biodynamic farming, is the understanding that the human itself is not something bad for the earth. If somebody asks me, what is the difference between biodynamic and organic? That's it. It's coming out of anthroposophy. It's very simple. The wisdom of the human being and our approaches that the human can, doesn't have to, can through a certain responsibility, be good for the earth or that you have that kind of co-evolution and that you can make the earth actually by respecting in a delightful way, evolve together in a very positive way, hand in hand, earth and human being. And this relation or this notion that the human is, cultural wise, if you use the word culture here, has a strong impact, we still have that in viticulture. The human being, the winemaker, le vigneron in French, is very important. And everybody, if you go out in this fancy, fancy wine world, we are talking very often about the person standing behind the product. So, it's super important who made the wine. If you look at carrots, who cares? Or milk. Who the fuck is a farmer? But in wine, the human being is there, you know, and that's maybe one aspect.

And then this plant human relationship, we can explain it in many, many ways. If you are a wheat farmer, you sow the wheats and that's it. If you are a wine farmer, you have to, we can even economically explain that in hours, working hours per hectare per year. So, you have to actually during the year to say to every individual plant, hello. You have to touch it. So, there is a strong relationship plant human. But what is maybe even more important is that we still live in the wine world, the notion of individuality. We talk in the wine world of Grand Cru. Grand Cru means, for example, in the French context that we know that a certain vignette with a certain exposition on a certain soil type has certain characters. And this vignette very often is even sold much more expensive. So, we know that there is a very specific surrounding, which is giving, which is playing a huge role towards quality. So, this notion of individuality, which we are developing in biodynamics very strongly, is still alive in the wine world. Of course, in the big production, we have Coca-Cola winemaking as well. But we have in that culture still this human being and then this individuality. And that it's clear if you go to Burgundy, for example, there is a very well-known vignette called Clos de Vougeot. And this is a fairly small area surrounded by a big wall. But this is owned by, I think, 40 different owners. And not all the wines taste the same. So, there is this relation human, how do I farm? Even so, it's coming from the same context. I just give you that as an example. So this relation human being plant and then the transformation, the cultural transformation process in the cellar. It's all the way much about, I go into my cellar and I go into a relationship. I'm not pushing it, but maybe I'm kind of following it softly with my intention, how I see as a guide where that little fermentation process should go to. And then I have my specific cellar. It's way, although on the spiritual side, we bring it down under the earth in the cellar and so on. I could talk forever now, but we have this kind of quality human plant, human product relationship, this cultural side still fully alive in the wine world and also in the communication.

Henri Murto: Yeah, yeah.

Georg Meissner: You have all these fancy, fancy wine magazines and you always have a smiling face of the human being behind. Even so, I'm getting sick and tired of that. But it's there. And that is the one side, this notion of individuality of relation, human wine or human farm is very strong living there. That can be given then to the biodynamic movement because we can do the same with carrots.

Henri Murto: Exactly.

Georg Meissner: And there are wine tastings where we did at the same time, a carrot tasting, or we can do a milk tasting. Of course it can be done. And of course we can have Grand Cru milk. We have that a little bit in the cheese making or especially in France, where it's clear that you cannot bring food from somewhere else because then the whole cheese will be different. So there are other cultures and I think coffee, you mentioned coffee can be the same, definitely. But I come back to the basics. It also can be done in grain, in wheat production. This quality. So that can the wine world give to the biodynamic movement. And then obviously the biodynamic movement with all this other impulses, the principles of seeing the farm as a living organism, of bringing in animals, of having this kind of aspects of corporations, of thriving towards a positive evolution of the farm within the context of soil fertility, biodiversity, but social impacts.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Georg Meissner: Super important. We always forget that in biodynamic farming. And what I really believe is really super important is all of this transfer of knowledge of wisdom towards the next generation to grab that. And there we have a lot of work to do in viticulture still. But everywhere in farming. I did it very long for the viticulture side and very short what the biodynamic world can give to the viticulture, but there is a lot. And there's a lot to be done. And there slowly but surely, it's super interesting at the moment. It doesn't have to be done, in my opinion, by this monoculture farmers who are very often very specialised and educated in that specific plant. And it's, for me, it's sometimes terrible to see a wine magazine or a biodynamic magazine. And then I see a cow in a vineyard and I can see very well that that cattle is not very well. So it's really very much about knowledge as well and about potential, potential of cooperation, maybe not only from the economical side, also from this kind of co-evolution. There are good examples of corporations between highly specified wineries and biodynamic farmers or not even biodynamic farmers, maybe shepherds and all those things.

Biodynamic Preparations: Scientific Understanding and Future 00:24:03

Henri Murto: You touched absolutely so important topic here and it's, at least also, also from my point of view, the, like you said about the quality and the culture, the human behind that quality. And I think this is, these are, this is like the topic and idea that I feel super modern in biodynamic farming. And I think it's, it's not only modern in our times, if we look at the ecological and social crisis, but it also transforms this old wisdom, this thousand year old wisdom into, into our time. And it's so practical. You cannot overcome these results, but also you mentioned the biodynamic preparations and the farm individuality and the viticulture. And I remember I heard your presentation first time 2017 of your PhD study of the DOC trials and comparing the, in the viticulture and the conventional farming. And I was, I was extremely impressed about, of your presentation, how you, how you could show that, for example, how the quality actually forms by using biodynamic preparations in the vineyards. And for me, there was absolutely many eye-opening moments in that presentation. I understood what the quality actually is in the wider context, but the question now I would like to hear, and I'm sure our listeners also would like to hear, because in Finland, for example, we still have this, the attitude or the atmosphere in the, in the general public or the media. If we talk about biodynamics, we very easily are labelled like you're crazy fools. You use the cow horns and you look the moon colour and so on. And many people in Finland do not know that there exists professionals like you in the world who have done it in a very deep academic level, but also have a very, very deep connection, for example, biodynamic preparations. And so I would like to know that your relationship about biodynamic preparations. And like you said, that the viticulture actually embraces them very easily. And usually they are the ones who will bring the quality into the products. So what would you say about, in generally of biodynamic preparations to the Finnish viewers or Finnish audience that, yeah, how is your relationship to the biodynamic preparations? How do you see them now and in also in the future?

Georg Meissner: It's a big question. You mentioned a lot of other things as well. For me, the biodynamic preparations are extremely wonderful. Let's put it this way. And there are for me, wonderful. And I use that word, complementary remedies and tools. I have, if I accept using them in my hands as a farmer. So maybe that's the one thing. And what we very often do in our communication in biodynamics, and I'm a little bit sick and tired of that is we, and I think it's, it's a little bit our own problem that we did it like that. That's the question of the communication. And very often, if you talk about biodynamics, the first thing that pops up, if I ask the public, is the lunar calendar and the cow horns. And we, I, in my opinion, did put ourselves in that corner ourselves, where, if we look at now at the world, that they are big movements like regenerative agriculture, which bear is totally bear in them, some of the main principles of biodynamics, like the organism, like all those aspects. I think we must reflect on our communication level on that side. That's not a direct answer to your question. But for me, maybe the first thing is, if you look at the preparations, that we shouldn't reduce biodynamics to the use of the biodynamic preparations. They only can be understood if we understand Steiner's picture of a biodynamic farm.

And once again, I come back to what I said earlier about understanding this co-evolution of human and the farm. As seeing the farm as an individuality. So I just give you one example. If I, myself as a farmer, take over a farm for my working lifetime of like 20 or 30 years. And if I, I'm in front of death in the threshold of going over to the next world. And if I look back and if I look back and say, okay, did I, there are those three possibilities. Did I work towards an evolution, a development, a positive development on the economical scale, but also on the soil fertility, biodiversity and beauty of that farm and the social context. So did I work in my lifetime out of this perspective? I really can look back now. Wow. I developed something. Nice. I can be happy. I can go now. Or did I just preserve it? That's what we call sustainable today. I took it over that and I give it back the same state. But this is boring. Or, and the third one, and that's very often also in the biodynamic context, still the case that I destroyed something.

So I have those three possibilities. Did I work as somebody who developed and evolved together with that farm in a positive way though, that I can give that to the next generation and to the earth and to humanity in a positive way. Because as a farmer, I'm not only doing something for myself. I'm really working for society and the earth. You know that. And, or did I just preserve it or did I even destroy it? And most of farming is looking at it only from that pure materialistic way. It's very destructive. So that's for me, what is my purpose? What is my inner enthusiasm? What is thriving me? And obviously how can I economically survive towards that evolving picture? So if I look at the regenerative movement, I don't like the word regenerative because I don't want to fix things. And what I don't like in that word is that gesture that I point the finger to the previous generation and telling they did something wrong here. I take over that piece of land in a certain state. That's how it is. And now my task is, and my beauty for creative possibility potential work is to try to understand all the potentials of my farm, of my wine farm, and to try to make it better, more beautiful.

So this is for me, the main picture of biodynamic farming and it's living in biodynamic farming. And this is super modern because we need to do that in our world is to evolve, to make it better. And if you look at the big climatical change thing, I think it's only us farmers, we have a big task. It's only us farmers who are capable to bring back that carbon, which is flying around in the air into that earth. So that's one big task on a social, economical, but not only social, on a world health economical way. So this is for me, the main principles of biodynamic farming. Now I come back to your question about the biodynamic preparations. They only can be understood and Steiner is, in my opinion, very clear in the agricultural course. And it's very often completely misunderstood also in the biodynamic movement that perhaps they are not replacing any fertilisation.

Henri Murto: Exactly.

Georg Meissner: So they are just there to, for example, if I use a plant to make the capacity of the plant stronger, to deal in a very positive way, to help the plant to become individual, to deal individually with all, to adapt, to fit with the environmental effects, to become more consciousness, to become more effective in that kind of, but it is not only physical. This is obviously to have plants who are not sleeping like that. And if you look at our cultural field, especially in viticulture, it is so obvious that very often I have this gesture in the land. So I have individual beings which are kind of like that. They are not very consciousness. But I could have individual beings who are like that, fully awake for the environmental influences. And this is for me the main aspect, looking at the biodynamic preparations. And I'm using those pictures now. We could look from a scientific perspective at it, but they give that kind of impulse.

Henri Murto: That's a super, super, super nice picture. And also, like you mentioned, that this adaptation, and nowadays the very trendy word resilience is coming everywhere. But could you say also that of course the biodynamic farm individuality, but also the preparations, like you said, that they can make the plant more individual, but also increase this resilience and adaptiveness to stand these climate extremes, weather extremes. So could you say this is possible to understand maybe biodynamic preparations better in the future, through experience?

Georg Meissner: I hope so. I think that this is their task as well. It's not only towards the plants. The preparations are there for the earth. You have to understand that. And for us humans, and for the animals, and for the plants, for the whole thing, for the whole. But yes, scientifically speaking, if you talk about science, when I did my PhD, and I'm not saying that we shouldn't do that anymore, I still measured very specific enzymes. So we took one enzyme, and we did measure if it's higher, and then we could make some interpretation in it. So we were very at that one substance thing. Today, if you look at soil science, but if you look at health of the human being, we talk about microbiome. And it's super interesting. It's not fully there yet that out of the scientific world, it's in high discussion and that there is a full understanding of it.

So the people who are working in that microbiome research, though the microbiome, in my opinion, is just the being of the soil, to use another term. We are not measuring one specific enzyme anymore. So microbiome means it's an interaction between all the different bacteria strains and fungus strains. So if you talk about microbiome measurements, we measure actually the potential and the capacity of that being there. And what is important there is the capacity and the potential of that being, I use that word now, in creating interconnections. So it's a social thing.

Henri Murto: Exactly, exactly.

Georg Meissner: So it's actually quite funny. So the capacity of dealing, of adapt, and there are now interesting research results. Some of them are published already, and they will be published soon, which, in my opinion, give us a first hint that the biodynamic preparations actually can give an impulse to help that microbiome in its capacity. So we can measure the potential of it. That doesn't mean that physically it's there already.

Henri Murto: Ah, very good points.

Georg Meissner: So through the biodynamic preparation, that capacity can be enhanced. That's super, super interesting. And that's for me, it's a beautiful explication, because on the one side, we can have physical effects in a very positive way. It can go down to the physical, but on the other hand, we really can prove now scientifically, or it eventually can prove that we can actually higher up the capacity, this capacity building process of dealing with a certain situation, to make it very simple.

That's maybe the soil side. And on the other side, we talk very often about genetic, genome, and so on. And there's another aspect, which is called epigenetic now, now I'm talking scientifically. And that's the same question. Epigenetic means that the environmental, it becomes more and more clear today that the environmental factors can actually play a role or can actually have a direct impulse onto our genome, onto your genome. So it depends how you live, that will have an impact on your genome. And that can be transmitted to the next generation and to the grandchild generation. So I may carry in myself still, and I have to deal with it on a physical level, environmental factors of the life of my grandparents. So we are talking about adaptation. So there as well are interesting results now that measuring those epigenetical factors, that we can see an impulse of the biodynamic preparations, using your words of resilience or stress, less having like drought, dry situations, the capacity of dealing better with those kinds of extreme situations. Which doesn't mean, in my opinion, we must be careful that the use of the biodynamic preparations is the solution. It's not only the biodynamic preparations, we as biodynamic farmers still have to adapt as well and try to build our farm in such a way that it can go towards the future and take over a big responsible task to save the earth. But using the preps, we can be a little bit faster.

The Future of Biodynamics and Agriculture 00:40:20

Henri Murto: It's amazing to have this kind of dialogue, have this talk, because you mentioned so many important topics here that we could talk for hours and hours. And I feel sometimes a bit sad that in general, in public, we do not discuss these topics in this level, even though we understand now quite widely that we have an ecological crisis and climate crisis and we're trying to find the solutions. But you mentioned a few times that the farmer is actually the solution to bring the carbon to the soil and develop this personal relationship. And for me, I think, how do you see the past 100 years of biodynamic farming, if we reflect that as a movement? And if one studies the history of organic movements, he or she quite fast finds that biodynamics were the first impulse. The Steiner's agricultural lecture was the impulse that really started to develop the whole organic movement. But if we reflect now for the 100 years of our biodynamic history, how would you feel that? Have we been able to, of course, like you mentioned, the PR issue that we have maybe done some good work in communication or we have put ourselves in a certain box or label, but what do you think that has been the big success stories of biodynamics in 100 years, if we try to reflect here very honestly as well?

Georg Meissner: First, you mentioned a few other things. First, I don't like to talk about crisis. I think there's Christian Morgenstern, a German poet, he's saying enthusiasm is the most beautiful word on earth. If I'm not having in myself a source of enthusiasm for something and if I talk about crisis, I come very fast back to the regenerative thing. Okay, I have that situation and it's done. Maybe the human being is responsible for it. Okay. But what can I do now? What can I do now? And this is for me, if I look back to the original impulse, this is very important once again, that Steiner is talking about that individuality. So looking back, I may be a little bit radical, but looking back really at the last 100 years ago, I believe that Steiner never gave talks on biodynamic agriculture first. He gave talks on agriculture out of a complementary view of his developed thoughts out of anthroposophy. If you go to anthroposophical medicine, we are not talking about an alternative medicine. For me, it's the word complementary medicine.

So this is what was done 100 years ago, the first impulse. And then I'm not criticising the movement in the last 100 years. We have to look also at the time spread. And it was needed that we kind of created our own group of so-called, the word biodynamics only came like 10 years after Steiner's death. So I am a father of four children. And it was every time difficult. It took us at least 10 days looking at that small child. And it's a huge responsibility to give that child a name. Because that name will be very important for the evolution and for the development of that human being. So giving a name puts you in a certain corner. So we can even look at the word biodynamic, that name came 10 years later. And we even can discuss that. I will not enter that question now. And I don't want to make a new name here now. But we must be aware of that name, bios, which means life and dynamos, the force. But basically, it's coming out of that anthroposophical point of view, which is the wisdom of the human being.

And so for me, it's really important to understand and to look at the last 100 years, what are the main principles in biodynamic farming? So if I look at it from a spiritual point of view, who am I? Where am I standing? And where do I want to go? So who am I means the past, what did all those pioneers do? And I can't give you a whole historical talk. But it's super interesting to look at that, the history of the biodynamic movement and how it got spread, mainly spread through the curative education. Very important. So it's very much related to medicine as well. And there obviously was the Second World War, where many people went from the German context into the world. So it got spread. To make it short, it's an international movement. We made, out of those principles, sometimes too dogmatic. We made our experiences in all different kinds of conditions. Tropical, here in Finland, in the north. We can go to the south, to South Africa, wherever we go, we have biodynamic experience. So it's a global experience.

And this is the who am I question. Where am I standing? That's today, that's being in the present. For me, it's the question. Yeah, I need to understand that. But what is my task now? And where do I want to go? And for me, the main question in general is, what does it mean to be a good farmer now? So I have to somehow adapt and stick to the current, also, economical system. It's actually super interesting. Steiner is pointing that out in the eighth lecture already, a hundred years ago. He's very clear that all what he was given in that agricultural course can only be fulfilled if the economical system at that time, which was the capitalistic one, would change a bit.

Henri Murto: Exactly.

Georg Meissner: So, and as long as the system outside is still like it is, we have to try within the system to do as best as we can. But what we did, or very often, we pointed out, oh, I'm so poor, and this system is so bad, and da-da-da-da. No, just try your best, man, within the system. So that's what I can do in the now, is to try to survive and adapt on an economical level, but step by step to make it out of this inner impulse I want to evolve.

And then to look for the future. For me, the main question is, for the future, what does it mean to be a good farmer? And I think the principles, seeing the farm as a co-evolvement human earth, and taking over the responsibility also for the not only for myself. There's Klaus Otto Scharmer, he's bringing that beautiful picture from ego to eco. You just change one letter, the G, into a C. Ego, eco. So I have this relationship between myself and the whole. So what does it mean to be a good farmer? That's the main question. And for me, it's not the question that biodynamic is the best, organic, permaculture, conventional, whatever. What does it mean to be a good farmer means for me to be capable to evolve together with the earth in a positive way. And I think for the future, many of the principles, if you understand them well, of biodynamic agriculture, they are super, super modern. So how can we, for me, that's the question for the future. How can we actually participate out of our 100 years experience towards, in general, an agriculture for the future? That doesn't mean that that agriculture for the future just has to be biodynamic. No, it has to be an agriculture for the future, where us as a strong movement, as an international movement can participate in the solution of the challenges we are facing. So for me, it's even a question if we talk in 10, 20 years still about conventional, organic and biodynamic. For me, it's now the task is to, as humanity, to look and work together and see what is good, where did we do things maybe differently? Biodynamic is one example. We didn't understand everything in biodynamics yet. We still have a lot of work to do. But how can we include that into a positive process? This is our task. And we did a lot. And we can be proud as well. But we slept a lot as well. We have both sides.

Enthusiasm, Humor, and the Adventure of Farming 00:50:16

Henri Murto: It's absolutely amazing to hear this point of views and also this, well, you mentioned so many topics. But I really like this, like you said, this co-involvement and also this enthusiasm. That's the main thing that actually we need to do, the co-evolution. And of course, for me also in biodynamic farming, the big source of enthusiasm was this idea of farm individuality. That includes the mineral kingdom plant, animal, human kingdom, preparations come there, like you said, as a complementary or something, as a possibility to create this co-evolution. And yeah, but I like really this idea also that you point out this enthusiasm, that as you were, as a plant, you're a little bit human as well as sleep. But how would you, in your opinion, because like I said earlier, you travel around the world, you work with the big wine houses and growers. But how would you say, what is your source of enthusiasm? Where do you get it? Have you always been like this? Or as a farmer who maybe listens to this podcast, where do you find this enthusiasm to see the nature differently, to enter this co-evolving dialogue? Do you have some sort of a source of enthusiasm or how would you find it now in today's world? Because I think many young people, they struggle because, like you said very well, that you don't like the word crisis, that it is a possibility and the enthusiasm should replace the crisis. But people many times, they only see the crisis. But where do we find this enthusiasm?

Georg Meissner: We have to drink more wine. It's very simple. Get drunk sometimes. Do a nice party. But on the one side, I make fun. But on the other side, if I give talks, I like a lot play around with words. And there's one which is nice. You can call it humus, humanus, humor. So, humus, humanus, humor, you always have the H-U-M, so the base of the word is the same. So, we need lots of humour to be a farmer. So, the humour can be that kind of... As a winemaker and especially in the anthroposophical world, I'm a representative of Dionysus, of love, Eros, and ecstasy, and chaos. So, if we are too hierarchical, too Apollon-like all the time, things can become a little bit heavy. And we have... I'm not going too deep, but we have in the philosophical side, we have two streams for the future. We have the Futurum and the Adventus stream. Adventus means something comes towards me. But Adventus, we have the word adventure in it. So, I need to go as a farmer permanently. I must be aware that I'm permanently doing that kind of adventure thing.

So, an adventure can be a lot of fun, but adventure can only be an adventure if I don't know what happens. So, yeah, it's that kind of play. And I always like to play... I learned that in South Africa, there's a normal saying, not only between farmers, if something doesn't go well, you say: "Boer maak 'n plan." Boer maak 'n plan. Farmer make a plan. Boer maak 'n plan. So, on the one side, I can make a plan. So, I prepare my fields and everything is perfect, and I have the best machines, da-da-da-da. And then it doesn't work out. That's our daily life. You make a plan and it doesn't work or a machine breaks. So, you made a plan, but the plan didn't work. So, you have to say, Boer maak 'n plan. So, you can make a plan, but you have to change the plan all the time. So, to face life. And that's life. And Dionysus is the representative of the snake, of the indestructible life. But life, you cannot grab. So, you need to be somehow flexible and have fun and laugh and drink a lot of wine, of course. It's easy to talk like that. I'm very often in a sad mood as well. So, I'm making fun now. But to see it like that as well. But we also need to face that kind of responsibility, heaviness as well. So, how to find our own inner balance. I always compare it with the slackline or surfing between the pure physical humus world, very materialistic, and the fantastic humour world. And that's humanus. And I have to create. It's beautiful what the Greeks are saying about that. They call it the individual aesthetics. So, now I went into a philosophical approach. So, I have to constantly, that's life, be, find my inner strength and balance. And today it's different than yesterday and tomorrow it will be different again. So, I'm constantly evolving as well. I'm not the same like 10 years ago. So, I must be aware. So, you asked me for a general recipe. I don't have a general recipe. But for me, having that experience of having seen many, many farmers all over the world, it's very much this depending on the human being, on the human spirit, on many, many factors.

Henri Murto: Could you even say that as a farmer, like you said, that if you think ourselves firstly as farmers, globally, cosmopolitan way, that if we as a farmer, we find this enthusiasm through, like you said very well, that balancing between the humus and humour, you have the humana, the soul life. And if as a farmer, if we find this enthusiasm and this really, really trust to the work, to the process, because we know Boer maak 'n plan, it never goes like we planned, but we still trust the process. Could you see that the farmers could be a big source of inspiration also, the young people maybe in cities who are searching the meaning of their life? And could that be also something new also in the culture that we could exchange?

Georg Meissner: Definitely. I think that's nothing new. We have beautiful words in German, sich erden or to get grounded. We have that in English as well. So if I'm too much out there, and a lot of education or the educational factor is very important, because if I was making fun, if I'm too much out there, sometimes it's nice to get grounded again. Bring you back. But sometimes if I'm too grounded, the world is so bad. So it's nice to get drunk again. Or to get a little bit, I don't know, to go into arts, into fantasy. And Steiner is talking about that. You must find this inner balance. So yes, farming can be there, because farming on one side is very much connecting to the earth, being really grounded, but farming on the other side, to create a farm. It's an artistic work. You can be a total artist. It's a fantastic creative job. You have so many, you can use a little bit of pink here, a little bit of yellowish there. It's beautiful. And you create a picture, and that picture is never stable. It never works. So you always have to kind of make a plan and adapt and maybe change the red to the yellow and the other. I just give you that as a picture.

So it's much about, there is a German neurologist called Gerald Hüther. He wrote a beautiful book about dignity, but another one about "Save the Play". The life, and in general, we need to, I think as humanity, to learn how to play. In a positive way, in a responsible way. And that I can give to people in the town. Do I end up in my smartphone or do I see other possibilities? Yes. And to get them grounded sometimes, of course.

And of course, this relation, I forgot to talk about that. For me, and it's so nice if I work with groups of people, with students, one very important aspect in biodynamic farming, that's for me the seventh conference, is to include the awareness. I was talking about epigenetics earlier from the scientific perspective, the awareness of landscape, of beauty, of interaction, of relation. I'm using important words now, which are not only related to farming, but if I look at this monocultural situation we have today, not only today, which was an awareness a hundred years ago, to create that awareness that through social contact, through relation, through a common sense from ego to eco, within my farm, to be creative, to create those spaces of development, of evolution for all those different beings, that that can be an extreme healingful, mindful process for the outer world, but especially for myself. It's a beautiful task as a farmer we have. It's very creative and it's very real. So we have a real side on that creativity side and we have a real side on just get ploughed and get those weeds out of here and stuff like that. So we have to, we are on both sides. And we very often in farming today where we are totally eaten up by economy, we end up in this kind of being in our tunnel on the economical level and I have to and I can't.

Navigating Economic Pressure and the Social Aspect 01:02:54

Henri Murto: So what would be a tool out of this? I guess there's not one single answer or one single tool, but what would be out of this economic pressure box or this very narrow crisis mode? What is the way out of the farmers and also the society out of this?

Georg Meissner: Well, I must be careful once again, not talking for two hours, but to make it very short. Once again, to make this proper analysis, who am I, where am I standing and where do I want to go? And today we are very often standing as farms under this economical pressure because the outside system is as it is. So on the one side, I have to be on that kind of survival mode. How can I economically somehow get to a point, do I have to become bigger or, and that's very often the case and I'm working with many farms on that side, small is beautiful. It's about what is my, once again, this Greek thing, what is my inner balance? Do I have to become bigger to balance or do I have to become smaller to balance? So there is not right or wrong, there's both sides. It's about being moderate to myself and to the outside.

And how can I, I have to look at that from this economical, but then of course from the social side, who, am I attractive enough that I get enough workers, people to work with me, for me, together? Is that right to think they work for me? Or are we working together on something? This kind of outside thinking, perception of work and what is my task? And it's not, of course, it's an economical task to make that farm economically viable somehow, but it's a bigger task as well. So how can I have fun within my farm, but how can I, and I need to, we as farmers, we need to participate in the initiatives to change the outside perception of the importance of farming. So obviously, we all can look at it, I make it very simple out of the economical question. In my opinion, farming is not only an economical work. It's interesting that Steiner is already talking about Weltlandwirtschaft, world agriculture. So to work as a farmer, I'm not only doing economical work, I'm not only part of the economical system, I'm also part of the social economical system and actually of the world economical system. Because it becomes, if you look at so-called climate change, it becomes more and more clear that if I do, I'm a child of globalisation and I love globalisation. I love being in contact with my friends in India and South Africa and so on. It's fantastic, that's our generation. Even so, my carbon footprint is bad like hell. Sorry for that. So now, yeah, it becomes more and more, but this kind of carbon footprint of mine created the awareness eventually as well that if I do something wrong here in Finland, that has an impact to Ethiopia.

Speaker 3: Exactly. And the other way around.

Georg Meissner: So talking about world agriculture means that I have a responsibility here to there. There is an interconnection. Now I lost my, what was your question again?

Henri Murto: Well, I think you answered in such many ways, but I like how you bring this awareness also, that this mentality of the farmer, especially in Finnish agriculture system, for my experience being a professional farmer almost 15 years and but coming from the city background, sometimes I feel that as a Finnish farmers, we are too, how do you say, we obey the authority too much. We act how the, let's say the big companies or big associations want us to act, but we forget this individual responsibility. And like you said very well, we forget that we should play, that farming should be fun. I like the idea because at the same time, you as a highly highly good practitioner and professional, you know that you have to, your results have to be good. Farming is so practical. Economically as well. But at the same time, you bring this idea that we should have the humour and play. I feel this as a Finnish farming scene. I think this mentality should also give us like, wow, we're not, we shouldn't be ashamed who we are. We are farmers and we have all the tools and possibilities to make it right. But like you said, like many farmers are struggling economically and as well. But I hope the people who listen to this podcast will hear this enthusiasm that I hear now with you as well, because it's amazing, you know. And also like you said that you have this and we have as a farming movement globally, we have the tools for the crisis, but we have to start with ourselves as well. So I think this is for me at least, and I hope to our listeners as well, that this can be a big, big source of inspiration that we can actually, yeah, work towards.

Biodynamics in the Next 100 Years: One Health 01:09:04

Henri Murto: So maybe for me, the question of what is the biodynamic for the next 100 years, I think we have already discussed it quite beautifully, what the next 100 years could be. But do you think, do you have still any topics that we maybe haven't been discussed yet that what is the next 100 years of biodynamic movement? Of course, I really like that idea, like you said, that Steiner actually talked about agriculture, that could this be one aspect that could be actually build the bridge for the next 100 years that a biodynamic movement becomes, yeah, agricultural movement or...

Georg Meissner: I didn't mention that now in the talk as well. The interesting story, if you look at the scientific world today, you can google that, One Health, the thinking of one health, it's becoming more and more clear that there is a correlation or this co-evolution I was mentioning already between the health of the earth and the health of the human being. So if you look at all this, at the actual scientific publication, we have that one health movement as well, lots of reflections.

So, and if you look once again 100 years back, it's interesting that Steiner actually, after having given those talks to the farmers on a high professional level, that was super, super well organised. It's maybe also interesting, he didn't only organise his agricultural talks, he gave talks in Breslau at the same time. And what I'd like to mention as well, although economically, he organised himself very well and he included arts. He had a whole ensemble of Eurythmists coming with him. So the cost for that conference, for that eight conferences were 20,000 Reichsmark, which is comparable to 80,000 euros today. I want to point that out because there was this awareness of that if we want to do something good, it has to be finance. Steiner didn't put that in his pocket. It was to finance the whole action there, the food, the travels and so on and so on. But it cost something. But that's maybe one point I wanted to point out, to be aware of that, that we have to somehow, don't be shy that we need to, as farmers, also be capable to earn money. To have that. And if we organise conferences and so on, especially in our anthroposophical movement, we tend to give ourselves up. But to do my work, I need to nourish my four kids as well and so on, to be freed up somehow. I give that maybe as a hint.

But for me, the most important one, I wanted to point out one health, is that Steiner actually had the intention that agriculture should be part of the medical section of the human sciences, already 100 years ago. And for me, that's the future as well, to create our awareness of this. And we are living with that in the anthroposophical movement. And it's super interesting. I got, and I know so many people who got towards biodynamic farming. In my own biography, I mainly got towards biodynamics through my autistic and handicapped, so-called handicapped brother. And I said, the spread of the biodynamic movement, it's not to be neglected, the curative education movement, the Camphill movement, and so on, Karl Koenig, towards the world. So this one health or this correlation with the healing process of agriculture and this co-evolution process, that's maybe one thing where this awareness we have and this experience we have in biodynamics can play a very important role. And it's not only the medical agricultural thing. One of the main aspects is the education, the education to create a space, space to grow. We call it in farming, but it's a space to grow as a father of four kids. It's also how do I create a healthy, a salutogenetical space to grow for our children. But not, if I talk about education, it's not only education for the children, it's also education for us adults, as you said, the people in the cities and so on. It's so much fun to, we just come from a seminar for international sommeliers, 45 nations. So it's so much fun to give that kind of impulse to the people and see the reaction. So for me, it's always nice. So we have this kind of experience and responsibility for the future to evolve together on the education, medical, agriculture, but also economical side. So farming is touching all those, even arts. We pointed that out as well. So farming is touching all those points. And to be aware of that, that we are actually artists, doctors, priests, teachers, farmers, we are all in one person. It's beautiful.

Henri Murto: It's so beautiful to hear this because this was also for me, as a farmer, when I worked, this whole new connection to world opens up. And to hear from you as an academic person, as a highly educated person, to have this attitude, to have this, let's use this word, this American can-do attitude. But I love it. I think it's really, really inspiring that in a way that you're very grounded, like you said, you have your feet on the ground always, but at the same time, you're entering this co-evolution that you see these endless possibilities to heal, to heal, like you said, to heal the earth, to heal the humans.

Georg Meissner: Myself.

Henri Murto: Exactly, exactly. And sometimes I ask myself, at least in Finland, because we have long distances, there are not so much cooperations between the farmers in the village or, you know, the machine has replaced the communal spirit, that where do we find this new community in the future? Do we find it from the online lectures? Can that connect to us? Then we meet physically, or do we find it, do we have to make like this more like local economy, that we make this more local, new kind of village cooperation? What is your experience? Because you have travelled all around the world. How do you, how do you, do you find examples like this?

Georg Meissner: Boer maak 'n plan. I make it very simple. There's not one recipe. Yes, of course, many people are having this online connections. I'm not part of social media, but there's such a big possibility. I'm not, I'm not dogmatic. I'm a little bit scared, but I'm not dogmatic about it. But physical meetings, how beautiful is that? And it depends where I am. If I am in the middle of nowhere, maybe I have to stick more to that. But if I am surrounded by a beautiful community, I can evolve wherever I can feel for myself, that I can somehow be connected, getting out of the loneliness. And trying to evolve together means that I must be aware if I can give something towards the whole, towards the eco. And it's good, it's a good feeling if I can see that what I'm giving is helping the whole. But I need to be capable to identify myself with it. And if I look for a group of people who could be good for me, I need to have the feeling that they do something good for myself as well. So, I have to come out of this egocentric point of view as well to look for a surrounding which is helpful for me, but it's really needed for me. It's in a couple relationship as well. If I don't have that feeling that I'm good for my partner, it's bad for me. And if I have the feeling that my partner is not good for me, it's bad for me as well. This mediating point. So, depending, there's lots of possibilities. And I've seen all those different possibilities and I'm open to all of them. So, just look what kind of possibilities you have.

There is another beautiful saying of, I think it's Hannah Arendt. I make it in German first. "Verstehen und verstanden werden, das ist Heimat." It's to understand and to be understood. This is home. So, she's disconnecting this home thing from the physical. It's about, it's a will process. I need to try to understand you. Yes, exactly. But I need to get the feeling that you are understanding myself. And this kind of in between can create a home, but this is not stable. This is a permanent, evolving thing. So, I obviously, I stick to some sort of community for a while. And then after a while, that community becomes too narrow for me and then I have to go out. This is, yeah, this is a normal social breathing process in evolution. So, it's not stable. I must be aware of that, that this kind of process is not stable. I'm permanently evolving myself as a farm within the connection. So, we must be careful with big organisations that they are not coming too narrow, like Demeter and so on, to kick a little bit that aspect.

Closing and Future Outlook 01:20:07

Henri Murto: We'll edit that away. But exactly, like you said, and it's, because in Finland we have a, we still have a huge history of family farms. Usually the farm, the younger generation inherits the farm and it goes to the family. But now I think, because the society has changed so much that many young people want to go to cities and they don't find farming interesting, or especially animal husbandry. I always said as a gardener that my work was so easy because I had Joona, my colleague, who was taking care of the cows. And we need more people who takes care of the cows in a holistical way, biodegradable way or ethical way. But I think, like you said about this relationship and this community and that farms and farmers are always changing. There's never static moments. But how could we change this social economic aspect that many people don't find themselves anymore farming? The farms die out, big companies rent the land because the young people don't find farming interesting. Do you see that there will be some sort of catharsis in this process, that it will change, that the people from the cities will start to look farming again differently? Or do we find solutions?

Georg Meissner: I come back to what I said in the beginning. It's all about enthusiasm. It's all about humour. It's all about happiness and play. We are focussing the outside world. We are neglecting farming or we are limiting farming only on the economical side. So if you talk about the cow, we are looking, if you talk about animals and farms, looking at animals only from the economical point of view, most of the time the animals go out of the farm because it's too expensive and you're not finding people who carry in themselves that they want to be 24-7 there for the animal. So maybe there are sometimes solutions, although maybe to share that kind of responsibility. But it's not easy because it's about relation. So I'm not going too deep into that. But for me, the general picture of seeing farming only as an economical point of view, and that's the super modern thing of biodynamic agriculture, that it's not only the economical thing. It's really this responsibility towards farming, towards the earth and towards humanity. It's super mindful. It's one of the most important tasks for the future and to create that awareness in creating beauty in the landscape, in creating the awareness that the human being is not bad. The human being, if we want to change that, whatever change or Klimabruch in German, however we want to call it or this co-evolution, if we want to adapt, if we want to be creative, we as farmers, we can actually do it in such a beautiful way, in such a creative way and to create this awareness that it is a beautiful way.

And we have all sorts of, if it's a community-based agriculture, if it's my own intention, if I have community-supported agriculture, I have lots of possibilities, in my opinion. And this co-evolvement of myself, maybe with my town community as well, or even guerrilla gardening in the cities. I was responsible for a big vine farm, I just give you that as an example. And on the economical level, introducing the cattle over the wintertime in the vineyards didn't make sense in the beginning. But it made sense in such a way that the whole landscape changed because all of a sudden we had different herbs and flowers growing. We had the soil quality of the animals, of the cattle there, the birds came, the landscape changed. And that's why I'm bringing that example, all the mamas with their little children, all of a sudden of the village, they met, where did they meet? They met at the vineyard where the cattle have been. So it was a new meeting point. I just bring those...

Speaker 3: Very good example.

Georg Meissner: Now very romantic, but fun. And how can that be financed? Because this is a fun place I created for the community. So anyway.

Henri Murto: It's a beautiful image. And like you said, the animals, they bring the diversity, they co-create or they enhance the diversity. But like you said, then the humans, the soul level also came. I think this is something that...

Georg Meissner: It's not only the manure which came out of the cattle, which was nice to have. But it's a nice byproduct. And that's the problem. We only look at it from the effectiveness, only from the byproduct perspective.

Henri Murto: No, it's not only that.

Georg Meissner: There's much more behind it.

Henri Murto: For me, it sounds that we've been talking almost all the time, like this new relationship to materialism also, that you bring these beautiful examples. And I hear in your talk that you have you have taken one step further in your relationship to materialism. You can be aware. It sounds to me that you are very aware that, okay, sometimes it's nice to drink a little bit of wine to have fun. You're aware that, you know, okay, you travel, your carbon footprint is not good, but you're doing such amazing work, helping the farmers locally to create this huge biodiversity, this richnessness that in so many levels, I hear your connection to materialism. It's very free, but it's full of responsibility. I like this very much, because like you said, you are not in a crisis mode, but you're not neglecting, you're not like saying, but still, I've also I've heard this this consciousness in your materialistic attitude. It's full of hope. It's full of awareness. And I think this is something that also farmers can be an example that that this is it's a process. It's a long process that we need to walk as a humanity. And maybe we can we can end up in this because I feel this is absolutely beautiful, beautiful examples. And like you mentioned, so many scientific threads that we could walk for a talk for hours and walk for hours. You know, it would be amazing that the epigenetics and the micro microbiomes that you're studying. And I'm just very glad that we can have this talk. And I hope that the listeners can get a lot of inspiration and go and search Georg's work. You know, it's very inspiring. And next time that we have you as a guest in Finland, or I meet you somewhere in the world, we will we will talk another topic. But thank you for this example, because it suits the Finnish mentality very, very nicely. Thank you so much, Georg Meissner, for having to be our guest here.

Georg Meissner: Thanks for having me as a guest. All the best.